I know this is a topic that has been debated (on the old basketball site, among other places) but not one I was able to address: what do we think of the Ivy post-season tournament for selecting the League’s NCAA representative? If there were ever a season for a Yale fan to favor the old format of having the regular season champion awarded the guaranteed NCAA slot, this would be it. But I still am a fan of Ivy Madness. There are five or six other teams that have something to play for even with Yale running away with the Ivy regular season title, so that’s good for the League and its players and fans. Ivy Madness is a great addition to the season for the four schools that participate, including the regular season champion. I think the format of limiting the Ivy Madness participants to the top four is the right one - it’s what makes the in-season competition so intense. The 2024 Ivy Madness final, with Yale winning on a buzzer-beater, was one of the best sports events I’ve witnessed in person. I’d hate to give up the opportunity for more such moments. Which format produces the most competitive Ivy team in the NCAA tournament? Hard to say; the regular season champion proved itself over 14 games while the Ivy tournament champion was playing best at the end. If Yale doesn’t win the Ivy tournament, I’ll be super disappointed, of course, and it would be hard to believe Yale wouldn’t be the most competitive Ivy in the post-season. But I’m ok with Yale needing to prove it again in Ivy Madness.
I think you nailed it. I support Ivy League Madness because it extends the season for a majority of the league. 7 teams would have completely meaningless games right now and instead we have an enthralling end to the season. Dartmouth can celebrate making Ivy Madness instead of an arbitrary 3rd place or whatever. This offsets the seasons where the top team may get upset in my opinion.
We do need to figure out the arena. I get wanting to go to Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell for the venue in terms of fairness but lets try to find a central location in a big city otherwise. (I’m fine with Columbia/Palestra)
The Ivy League men will likely only get one bid during our lifetimes and I think its critical that the league win at least three games in the tournament every decade and also not get clobbered or the powers that be could strip the auto bid away.
I’ve never been a fan of the tournament because I fear a fluke upset during “Ivy Madness” resulting in a low seed and a blowout loss in the first round of the NCAA tournament–a concern I expressed many times on the old board. If its going to persist, the league should at least give home court to the regular season champion, so they get rewarded and have at least a modest leg-up in the Ivy tournament, even if that means splitting the men’s and women’s tournaments into separate venues.
I was impressed by the attendance at the Princeton-Columbia women’s game last night, which may have exceeded attendance for the Princeton men’s game against Dartmouth that followed. A stand-alone women’s tournament would do fine.
I’m 100% in favor of a conference tournament but more needs to be done to give the #1 seed a clear advantage. Currently, the lowest seed may end up with homecourt and have to win the same amount of games as the highest seed. That’s ridiculous.
Maybe do a 3-day tournament at a single site. #3 and #4 play on Friday. Winner plays #2 on Saturday. Winner of that plays a rested #1 on Sunday.
A few thoughts on Ivy Madness:
There are only two gyms in the league large enough to hold the two semi-final games in one session–the Palestra at 8,700 seats and Jadwin at 6,800. Both also have ample lobby spaces to acomodate fans, unlike the others. I enjoyed the Ivy Madness events in both arenas, (I may be a little biased given that the Tigers won them both). In the other six arenas, the two semis have to be split into two sessions, which makes buying tickets a scramble, unless you’re willing to buy both sessions well before the teams are set.
Wherever the thing is played, the league should hold back a larger portion of the tickets to Ivy Madness and allocate those to the teams that make the tournament. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but other than a very small number of tickets for families of the team, administration, and top donors, this isn’t done.
Aside from watching the Tigers play more than a dozen times in the NCAA tournament over the years (call me spoiled), the most exciting game I’ve witnessed was the Princeton vs. Harvard playoff game held at Yale in 2011. The league split the tickets and both schools sold out their allotment. Seating was general admission but Princeton fans were directed to fill in one end of the gym (both sides of the court) with the other half rooting for Harvard. The atmosphere was fantastic.
Here’s “the shot” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1auYMbtvUc
If we’re going to locate the tournament at one school, let’s go for the most central one: Yale. That’s not going to happen for the same reason it won’t be permanently at Penn or Princeton - it wouldn’t be fair. It’s probably unrealistic, but holding it in New York at MSG or Barclays would be by far the best location.
Rose Hill at Fordham, a historic and appropriately sized gym,
might work. People would need to brave the Bronx.
I think MSG it’s probably what the league should aspire in the future, but I don’t think right now it has the power for such a move. And maybe is not fair for the fans of the schools that live further away from nyc. But I do think that they should start looking for some intermediate arenas. ILT have been selling out recently and seem to be growing, so looking for intermediate size arenas might be the move. Barclays might be possible in some years, but something like Mohegan Arena? I know they have been doing the Big East Tournament lately, but I gues they might consider moving to a bigger place soon, maybe? Is there some other arena in the north east with around 10k-15k capacity?
Isn’t Rose Hill almost as big as Levien, and way smaller than Jayden and Palestra, though?
PS: It’s time for Columbia to build a proper Gym, and not a shoe box under a library
As repeated ad nauseum on the old board, I think the tournament–AKA the folly–is just a bad idea. It would be a travesty for Yale not to go to the NCAA tournament this year, even though I’ll be pulling hard for Princeton to get into the folly and win the thing. Much of the time when there are two or three nearly equal teams they finish with equal records and we had the much more exciting (and fair) one-game playoffs.
The ILT takes away the incentive to fight to win the league, it reduces interest in the best team in favor of boring discussions of tiebreakers for mediocre ones, it reduces the league’s desirable (now critical) product differentiation, it is badly organized and mounted and doesn’t add buzz or interest (the mixing with the women is particularly perverse logistically and otherwise), the schedule is bad for the players in order to help TV and the NCAA committee, and it’s kind of sad to have an event with so little profile trying to jump up and down with its hand up to attract attention. Under the old system, the regular-season Ivy title and the first-in-the-nation autobid at least guaranteed some media coverage of the league and its best team that year.
A friend suggested this to me: designate a region for each pair of travel partners. Create a four-year rotation to a neutral site in each region. The Ps could use the Rock, a Big 5 gym, or the RAC. The Cs could use Carnasecca, the Carrier Dome, or Rose Hill Gym. Yale/Brown could use Mohegan, Webster Bank, the XL Center, etc. Harvard/Dartmouth could use anything in the Boston area or the Mullins Center.
Not sure that would be my first choice, but I like the creative thinking. Getting the games out of the home courts even if not out of the hometowns would be progress. Getting an arena that holds more than a few thousand would be great. Getting it in a central location would be desirable (Syracuse feels pretty remote). Getting it in a big city would increase the draw. I guess that means New York, Boston or Philadelphia. New York would seem like the best answer if an appropriate arena could be found - it’s central and there are built-in fan bases for all eight Ivies, making it easy to draw a crowd and neutral (Columbia notwithstanding) in terms of favoring one set of teams over another.
I am not sure how the economics factor in but it’s worth noting that for the following sports, the 1 seed hosts the tournament and if applicable M/W sports are not packaged together. To my knowledge, this is all the other sports that use the “4 teams from 8 make the tournament format”
Fall:
Field Hockey
Soccer (M)
Soccer (W)
Volleyball
Spring:
Baseball
Softball
Lacrosse (M)
Lacrosse (W)
For all those other sports, the logistics of lodging for players/fans, the shorter prep time etc. is apparently a non-issue (at least relative to the value of the 1-seed getting to host). Unless they are making so much $ off the ILT by packing M/W together that they wouldn’t otherwise make, it seems like the simplest solution (or at least, simplest fair solution) could just be having the respective 1 seed host each tournament.
By my count, there have now been 3 finals on the men’s side and 2 finals, along w/ some SF where the #1 seed had to play a true road game.
2017 Princeton MBB (@ Penn) Semi Final (Overtime) W
2018 Harvard MBB (@ Penn) L
2019 Harvard MBB (@ Yale) L
2023 Yale MBB (@ Princeton) L
2018 Princeton WBB (@ Penn) W
2021 Princeton WBB (@ Harvard) Semi Final W
2024 Princeton WBB (@ Columbia) W
If 14-0 Princeton had lost @ 6-8 Penn in the first Ivy Madness there would’ve been some re-thinking I think.
I am pro-tournament for sure, and even like the idea of Ivy sites. I just am skeptical the economics are so much better for the current format that they can’t do what they do for every other sport and just let the #1 seed host.
I think what makes the most sense is to the host mens ILT @ Columbia every season. That way, the league can ensure that no team will ever have home court advantage to decide who gets the automatic bid
I get the tongue in cheek, CursedLion, but I’d be ok with that compared to any other home court, even knowing that the Lions will get to the promised land of Ivy Madness someday. New York is too big for Columbia to have a meaningful advantage in that scenario.
hands-down the best conference tournament, in my opinion. too many massive conferences throwing all but one or two schools into conference tourney, takes away from the drama of the regular season. Who the hell wants to watch Boston College battle Georgia Tech for one of the last spots in the ACC tournament? Respect to any Sicko out there who finds that interesting but I’ll pass. Went to the tourney at Columbia last year, I’m a Brown student so it broke my heart. But what a special experience! Two days, three games. All comes down to that. Unmatched energy, especially in a building like Levien. Yale gets there credit for an amazing conference season with the official Ivy League championship. That still means something. But you can’t replace that all-or-nothing feeling of Ivy Madness. Special league and a special tournament.
Also yes I am inclined to agree with Milddogs on the choice of venue. I am partial as a Brown student and excited that we are hosting the tourney this year even tho our team probably won’t be in it☹️ however, speaking as a man who appreciates a good arena, the Pizz isnt the best the Ivy has to offer. NYC was great and honestly if the Ivy moved it permanently to the Palestra I wouldn’t mind one bit. Never been up to Dartmouth or Cornell for a game, but doesn’t seem like there arenas are anything too special either. And additional travel difficulties will be presented. Still, I do have a soft spot for each Ivy getting a chance to host, and I’m looking forward to going up to those venues in the coming years
I think the tournament is a net positive.
I also wonder if we are not over-estimating
its ability to draw. I used to go to the A-10
regularly at Barclay’s, and that bigger League
could not come close to filling the arena.
I loved the Princeton-Harvard play-in at Yale,
and think there is charm in using all the home arenas,
and having the men and women play at the same place.
There are logistical challenges both as to seating capacity
and available hotels, but I have not yet heard that anyone
was shut out. Dartmouth and Cornell may be bigger issues,
but my guess is there is adequate lodging-- they both host
big graduations. I just don’t know whether the fan bases
are larger enough to require a big arena.
I agree that Barclays seems too big right now. I think Princeton and Penn (+8000 seats) are perfect in size right now. Last year’s ILT at Columbia was completely full and sold-out way in advance to the event, so 3000 seats is definitely not enough. And I think it is pretty obvious that the league is growing so its worth thinking about bigger venues for the future
I don’t think any of us know if Barclays or MSG is too big for Ivy Madness. Yale and Harvard played hockey games at MSG (the Rivalry on Ice series) for several years (2014 and 2015 were the first) and got good crowds. I believe Harvard and Cornell continued this event with similar results. How about a bit of creative thinking here: an old-fashioned college double header in December at Barclays or MSG among four of the Ivies. The results wouldn’t count for League purposes (which was the case for the Rivalry on Ice hockey games) but would otherwise be official games. The Ivies all have difficulty lining up good out-of-conference schedules so this would help with that. And then we can see if Ivy basketball fans will show up at a first-class venue in the Big Apple.
So they would play each other in basically exhibitions at msg or barclay’s? Do better.